The Corner Penthouse

Amazon.com promises "hassle-free returns". In my experience, 95% of the time, that is the case. However, that other 5% is a HUGE problem that Amazon knows about, but is doing nothing to correct. Within the past year, I have had two instances - one currently in progress - where Amazon charged me for a returned item that it knows it received back. To understand the situation, let me first go over the return process.

The process to return an item on Amazon is pretty simple, though from my experience, items can only be returned within 30 days of delivery. (I seem to recall it being 90 days not too long ago.) Once I log into my account and navigate to My Orders page, I find the order containing the item and click on the "return" link. Then I select the item from the list, choose a reason for return from the drop-down box, and type in some comments (up to 200 characters). On the next few screens, I choose if I want a refund (to original payment method or Amazon balance) or an exchange ("exchange" is not available for some items, such as some large Blu-ray box sets that Amazon damaged in transit), see a refund summary, choose how I want to return the item (UPS Drop Off), and finally get a UPS pre-paid return label to print out.

Once I package up the item, I put the UPS pre-paid return label on it and bring it to my local Staples store for drop-off. The Staples employee gives me a printed "Drop-Off Package Receipt" showing that the package is now in their possession. A UPS driver usually comes to the store that evening to pick it up. Once the package officially enters the UPS system that evening, Amazon gives me an "Advance Refund" in the middle of the night. (I want to make it clear: AMAZON GIVES THE "ADVANCE REFUND" WHEN IT SEES THAT THE PACKAGE IS IN THE UPS SYSTEM. In other words, AMAZON GIVES THE "ADVANCE REFUND" AT A POINT WHERE IT KNOWS THAT I NO LONGER HAVE THE ITEM IN MY POSSESSION.)

Only recently has Amazon offered "Staples Drop-Off" as a return option. (The are reports that Staples Drop-Off has its own set of problems.) I can just take the unpackaged item to the same Staples store, show a QR code on my phone to a Staples employee, who will scan that QR code twice. Then the employee puts the item in a clear plastic bag, puts an Amazon return label on it and scans a UPS package code that's taped to the store counter. I believe that UPS picks up a single box containing all returned items that day, which is then brought to an Amazon return center through normal UPS delivery methods, but I am NOT given a UPS tracking number; only a Staples "Unpackaged Return Receipt" with an Amazon "Return Code" on it. For the single time that I've used this method, Amazon gave me an "Advance Refund" an hour or two later. One would assume that when the Staples employee scans the QR code, it officially enters Amazon's system as "returned", though from the single time (so far) that I've done a "Staples Drop-Off" return, the order page in my account still showed the item as "Refunded - Return Is In Transit". A week later, it was finally changed to "Return Complete".

That's how "hassle-free returns" are supposed to work.

What happens when UPS tracking shows that Amazon received the item back, parts of Amazon's own system shows that the item was received by Amazon, and even Amazon employees see that Amazon got the item, yet the part of Amazon's system that handles refunds and billing doesn't recognize that? Amazon charges your original payment method for the item and tax, forcing you the customer to go through the hassle (so much for "hassle-free returns") of contacting Amazon customer service and having them credit back the money to your original payment method.

This has actually happened to me twice in the past year. The first time, I had no advance notice. Around the end of January 2023, I received a "Charge Confirmation" e-mail from Amazon starting that my original payment method was just charged for the DreamWorks Dragons: Gift of the Night Fury (Blu-ray) that I returned at the end of November 2022, which UPS delivered to Amazon at the beginning of December 2022. (I no longer have the UPS tracking number and exact sent and received details, but this is an accurate timeframe.) Once I received that "Charge Confirmation" e-mail, and another from my bank informing me of Amazon's charge, I hopped onto Amazon's chat system to get my money back from an Amazon rep. The chat rep couldn't do anything, so they had Amazon call me. Within a minute, I spoke to a rep from a call center in India (because an American company like Amazon doesn't believe in hiring Americans to handle their customer service) and she said she would refund the money to my original payment method. Within the hour, I received e-mail confirmation of this, and the money was back in my bank within a day or two.

One thing I noticed at the time, is that on my order history page on Amazon's site, the Dragons Blu-ray was listed as "Refunded - Return Is In Transit" instead of "Return Complete". (It still says it to this day.) I learned from this experience that, if two weeks after UPS says Amazon received an item back, it is still listed as "Refunded - Return Is In Transit" in my Amazon account, there is going to be a hassle.

That brings me to the second time this happened, which is what I am currently going through...

On September 25, 2023 at 12:24 PM Eastern, I dropped off at Staples an Amazon return package (tracking number 1Z84187Y9008937234) containing The Jungle Book (Blu-ray), Soul (Blu-ray), and The Poseidon Adventure (Blu-ray).


UPS delivered the package to the Amazon facility in Indianapolis, Indiana on September 27, 2023 at 11:00 PM; received by "On File". I need to point out that I originally checked the UPS site at 8:00 PM Eastern, and it said that the package was already delivered at 11:00PM. Indiana is also in the Eastern timezone, so I'm not sure how they delivered the package three hours into the future. Still, as long as UPS says they delivered the package to Amazon, any discrepancies are between UPS and Amazon; my hands are clean.


Amazon specifically wanted me to send the three items back together in one package, and for a while, they were grouped together as one return on the order page on the Amazon site. Two weeks later, on October 9th, I noticed that now the three items were listed as two separate returns. Even more surprising, although Amazon received all three items together, Soul and The Poseidon Adventure were listed as "Return Complete", but The Jungle Book was still listed as "Refunded - Return Is In Transit". How can they get the package with all three items and only claim that two were received?!?


Immediately, I smelled bullshit. Having learned from the experience with the Dragons Blu-ray, I wanted to make sure Amazon didn't pull the "we didn't receive this item so we're gonna charge you" crap. On October 9, 2023 at 11:27 PM Eastern, I fired up Amazon's chat bot, and chose The Jungle Book as the item I needed help with. To my surprise, Amazon's automated Messaging Assistant said, "OK, looks like we received this item. Thanks for returning it."


If Amazon's chat bot knows that Amazon got the item back, why doesn't Amazon's site know it, too? I clicked on the icon at the bottom of the chat window to be transferred to a live Amazon representative. At 11:27 PM Eastern, Amazon rep "Ruby May" joined the chat. (Click here for a full chat transcript)

11:34 PM: Ruby May | Customer Service
Thank you so much for returning the item at UPS. I do apologize that I hasn't marked as returned according to your end. No worries, I'll go ahead and check this for you. Upon checking here, the item was already received by Amazon facility on Wednesday, September 27 at 11:00 P.M. In this case, let me go ahead and disable the return reminder for this so that you will not gonna be charged again. Please stay connected.

11:36 PM: Ruby May | Customer Service
Alright, I've already disabled the return label for the item. Please rest assured that you will not get charged again for the item.

Although I periodically re-checked my order page, and The Jungle Book was still listed as "Refunded - Return Is In Transit", and was never changed to "Return Complete", I really thought this chat with Ruby May would have been the end of it. After all, the return status of Dragons was never changed after Amazon refunded my money at the end of January.

Exactly three weeks later, On October 30, 2023 at 9:30 PM, I received a "Return Reminder" e-mail. I guess Ruby May LIED when she said that she would "disable the return reminder". I wonder if she also lied when she said that I "will not get charged again for the item".


At this point, I was FUMING MAD! I had already taken steps to prevent Amazon from pulling the same bullshit twice, but it looks like Amazon does what Amazon wants. So, again, on October 30, 2023 at 10:21 PM Eastern, I fired up Amazon's chat bot, and chose The Jungle Book as the item I needed help with. Again, Amazon's automated Messaging Assistant STILL said, "OK, looks like we received this item. Thanks for returning it."


This has got to be some kind of fucking joke! Clearly, Amazon KNOWS it received The Jungle Book back. The chat bot confirmed it TWICE, as did Amazon rep Ruby May on October 9th. Would a chat with another Amazon rep solve this problem once and for all? At 10:24 PM Eastern, "Kowshika" joined the chat. (Click here for a full chat transcript)

I would be lying through my teeth if I said Kowshika was helpful. In fact, to be completely blunt, she didn't do jack shit, except put me "on hold" for the entire 20 minutes, and then leave the chat for no discernible reason. I suspect that while I sat there waiting for her to tell me anything, she was actually chatting or talking with the person higher-up that I should have been chatting with. After she left, "Dipti" took over, but he didn't do anything, either.

Kowshika has joined and will be ready to chat in just a minute.

10:24 PM: Kowshika | Customer Service
Hi, this is Kowshika. I'll be glad to assist you today. Please allow me a moment to read the previous conversation to assist you better

10:25 PM: Paul
No problem

10:27 PM: Kowshika | Customer Service
Thank you for waiting. Sorry for the inconvenience caused. Let me check and help you with this. Please allow me a moment.

10:28 PM: Paul
Sure

10:36 PM: Kowshika | Customer Service
Thank you for waiting. Just to confirm, are you referring to The Jungle Book (BD + DVD + Digital HD)

10:36 PM: Paul
Yes.

10:41 PM: Kowshika | Customer Service
Thank you for confirming. Could you please help me with the return tracking number?

10:45 PM: Paul
The UPS tracking number is already in my account on the return label that still shows up on the item's return page: 1Z84187Y9008937234 That was the package with The Jungle Book, Soul, and The Poseidon Adventure in it.

Dipti has joined and will be ready to chat in just a minute.

10:46 PM: Dipti | Customer Service
Hello, This is Dipti, I will take it from here. How are you today?

10:47 PM: Paul
Why did the other rep leave the chat after keeping me on hold for a half hour? That's not very professional.

10:48 PM: Dipti | Customer Service
The Jungle Book (BD + DVD + Digital HD). I apologize for the inconvenience caused due to this. This item never refunded?

10:48 PM: Paul
Here's the whole story again..
[cut for space]

10:50 PM: Dipti | Customer Service
I need to connect your call to our retrocharge team so that they will disarm the retrocharge. May I know your phone number please?

10:52 PM: Paul
It's awfully late here in New York to get a call, but if you chat reps are incapable of handling this, go ahead and call at [redacted].

At 10:52 PM Eastern on October 30, 2023, I received a phone call from Amazon. The caller ID lists the return phone number as 206-922-0880. First, an Indian woman picked up, whose name I could not understand. (Again, would it kill Amazon, an AMERICAN company, to hire an American call center?!?) I told her the situation, she put me on hold, and then at 10:58 PM - after only being on hold while I heard her type for 6 minutes - she put me on hold to transfer me to someone else!!!

Second, after being on hold from 10:58 PM to 11:09 PM, a male Indian rep picked up. His name sounded something like Farah, but it might have been "Sourav Saha" as I received a "Thank you for your inquiry. Did I solve your problem?" e-mail from him after the phone call at 11:16 PM. Anyway, all he did was tell me that I should WAIT for them to investigate the matter later. He said that if I get charged on November 9th, I should go through the hassle of calling them again so they can give me a refund! CAN YOU FUCKING BELIEVE THAT?!?

I was on chat from 10:23-10:53 PM, and on phone from 10:52-11:10 PM. In total, I WASTED 48 MINUTES OF MY LIFE TO ACCOMPLISH JACK SHIT!!! None of the FOUR Amazon reps marked this return as "complete", which is the ONLY thing any of them needed to do. Instead, they ALL put me on hold. Rather than being proactive and getting the problem solved *BEFORE* I get charged, they would rather I get charged and then they would refund it later. That's not good customer service.

So, at this point, all I can do is wait and see what Amazon does on November 9th. I have already taken steps to make it difficult for Amazon to charge me by removing all payment methods from my account and locking the card used to originally pay for the order, but it wouldn't surprise me if Amazon finds a way after all. I will post an update after November 9th at the end of this article.

I guess Amazon's claim of "hassle-free returns" is just fraudulent marketing. No wonder four other customers filed a class-action lawsuit against Amazon in September 2023. Rest assured, once I'm allowed to be a part of that lawsuit, I will.

[UPDATE - 11/12/2023]
Shortly after writing this article, I posted a link to it on the official Amazon Facebook page as I wanted them to be aware of the matter. The comment was responded to by "Rose" and then "Tyler". They requested that I submit my information through Amazon's "Send Your Contact Information to Amazon Support for Social Media" form, which I did on August 7th. Within an hour, I received an e-mail from "Vivek" asking for more information about the matter, even though I pointed Amazon towards this very article in which I explain the issue in extraordinary detail. I replied back with a link to this article, as well as a copy and paste summary of the matter. What followed next was very strange.

Thirteen minutes later, I received an e-mail from Amazon telling me that I need to confirm my identity by giving them a copy of my government-issued ID card.

Date: Tue, 7 Nov 2023 22:28:49 +0000
Subject: Your Amazon.com order
From: no-reply@amazon.com

Hello,

Thank you for contacting us regarding your order 111-1526918-0333848.

Because we noticed abnormal activity on your account, we need to verify your identity before we can consider your request for a refund or replacement. We may also request additional information before granting your request.

How will you verify my identity?
In order for us to verify your identity, upload a valid government-issued identity document on the secure customer portal. Note that the following link will expire after 6 days:
https://account-status.amazon.com/identity-validation

All personal information that you provide will be handled in accordance with our Privacy Notice. To review our Privacy Notice, go to "Amazon and Your Personal Information":
https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=G68RWEYX26H3ZXJT

What happens when I submit my ID document?
We will review your order and your account and verify your identity through one our third-party service providers. Once you have submitted your information through the secure customer portal, it will take us 3 business days to determine an outcome. At that point, you can contact us to learn the outcome of the investigation.

What happens if I do not submit my ID document?
You may continue shopping on Amazon, but you will no longer be eligible for a refund on the order 111-1526918-0333848. Also, you will not be able to investigate this order issue further.

Who can I contact if I need help with this issue?
You can contact us through your Amazon profile. To do so, go to "Amazon Customer Service":
https://www.amazon.com/contact-us

Account Specialist
https://www.amazon.com

I really don't know what to make of this nonsense. It states that Amazon "noticed abnormal activity" on my account, and they they need to verify my identity before they "can consider [my] request for a refund or replacement". I already received the refund for The Jungle Book when the package containing it, and two other items, entered the UPS system on September 25th. The issue at hand isn't that I didn't get a refund for the returned item, it's that Amazon intends to charge me for the returned item that it already received because Amazon did not mark this return as "complete". This e-mail also didn't explain what the supposed "abnormal activity" on my account was.

I sure as hell will NEVER give Amazon a copy of my government-issued ID card. Amazon doesn't need it. I have been shopping on Amazon for 25+ years now, and have given Amazon TENS OF THOUSANDS of Dollars over that time. Hell, I gave Amazon over $300 alone for the large order that The Jungle Book was a part of. Amazon is clearly overstepping its privileges here. Amazon should be glad that I've chosen to give it some of my business, most of which usually goes to eBay, Target, Walmart, and Best Buy.

Ten minutes after receiving this nonsense, I received an e-mail from "Shifa" that completely states the obvious, if you've read this entire article up to this point.

hello Paul,

Thank you for contacting amazon!!

we are really sorry for any sort of inconvenience caused.

Thank you for bringing in notice about the query of charge-back for you returned order number-111-1526918-0333848 and item name- The Jungle Book (BD + DVD + Digital HD)

we certainly didn't expect that to happen.

but however we cannot prevent the charges but we can certainly refund the charge once it is debited from your account in-case it happens.

be rest assured we are here to assist you in any way possible.

please accept our sincere apologies again.

As was already made obvious to me from my October 30th chat and phone call, all Amazon reps are useless to mark a return as "complete". Why that is, I do not know. I doubt that any of them would tell me if I asked.

There are several problems with letting Amazon do a re-charge, and then having customer service credit the amount back. I probably already gave them in this article, but I'll list them again really quickly.

1. If the customer doesn't have enough money in their bank account to cover a re-charge, it could cause the bank to charge the customer overdraft fees. Would Amazon refund overdraft fees? I doubt it.
2. The customer has the added annoyance, inconvenience, and hassle of contacting customer service to get the re-charge credited back.
3. The customer could have their money held in limbo for a few business days between the time Amazon takes it from the re-charge and when Amazon's credit is put back in the bank account. That's a period of time in which the customer does not have their money, which they may need to pay a bill or buy food.

Shifa's November 7th e-mail was the last correspondence I received from Amazon. I was not re-charged for The Jungle Book on November 9th, 10th, or 11th. Either Amazon realized their mistake and didn't try to bill me, or locking my bank card blocked their attempts. I don't know, for sure, as my bank doesn't give me any notification when an unsuccessful attempt to bill the card has been made. PayPal would send an e-mail notification, but the PayPal debit card stopped being usable a few months ago when it removed the option to link it to a bank account.

After wasting so much of my time dealing with completely useless customer service and a company whose left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, I won't order from Amazon ever again. There are other options out there, and I doubt those companies are run as poorly. Maybe Jeff "Lex Luthor" Besos should spend more time running his company and less time in space.

[UPDATE - 12/9/2023]
Well, I thought this matter was in the past, but Amazon feels otherwise. A month after Amazon said it would attempt to bill me for the returned The Jungle Book Blu-ray, I received an e-mail stating that Amazon tried to bill me for the item Amazon acknowledges it received, but failed (because I removed all payment methods and locked my card).

Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2023 20:22:25 +0000
Subject: You couldn't be charged for The Jungle Book (BD + DVD + Digital HD)
From: return@amazon.com

Hello Paul,

We have processed refund on your return request, as part of which you agreed to send the original item back by Nov 9, 2023. We have not received the original item from you and have attempted to retrocharge your original payment method, but was not successful.

Please be advised that in the future you may be asked to complete payment.

Item details:
The Jungle Book (BD + DVD + Digital HD)

Summary of charges:
Item subtotal: $13.99
Tax: $1.21
Shipping: $0.00
Total: $15.20

After I received this e-mail, I hopped on to Amazon support chat to see if I could get this matter resolved once and for all. As with every time over the past two months that I have begun one of these chats, as soon as I initiated the chat, Amazon's automated assistant confirmed that Amazon had received The Jungle Book and thanked me for returning it. [rolls eyes]

On December 9, 2023 at 4:36pm Eastern, "SRAVANTHI" entered the chat. By 4:39pm, he/she mysteriously had a "technical issue", but not before he could send me one of those e-mails asking me to submit scans of my government-issued ID card to Amazon. (I already detailed that pre-written e-mail and stated why I will NEVER submit my ID to Amazon.) "Fazil" joined the chat shortly thereafter, and to say he did nothing would be generous. After waiting while he checked on the matter, he replied with this:

Thank you for uploading your ID. I see that our team is still investigating/reviewing your submission. It can take up to 3 business day for us to finish our investigation. Please contact us again after 12-December-2023. After that date, we'll be able to share the outcome of the investigation and if we need to take additional actions.

After I informed him that I never uploaded an ID, nor would I, he got very rude and DEMANDED that I submit a scan of my ID to Amazon in order for them to be able to handle this matter. As I was typing up a reply explaining that Amazon does not need an ID in order to mark this return as "complete" and stop trying to bill me for an item it already received TWO MONTHS AGO, he rudely ended the chat, thus preventing me from saving or screenshotting the entire (limited) conversation.

Of course, he sent another one of those e-mails asking me to submit scans of my government-issued ID card to Amazon. For shits and giggles, I decided to see what would happen if I submitted an extremely redacted scan of my ID card on the Amazon Identity Validation page. Clicking on the "Validate Identity" button redirects to https://idverify.amazon - a url that looks shady as hell with it missing a suffix in the domain name. Here, I was asked to choose ID type (Driver License, State ID, Passport, Passport Card, etc.). The next screen asked me to "take a clear photo of [my] government ID" and click on the "Upload a photo" button. What Amazon wanted next it CLEARLY does not need: "a clear photo of the barcode on [my] government ID". There is no indication about what Amazon would do with the information it could glean from the barcode, and I certainly don't trust Amazon with having any of the information contained in that barcode. Hell, after everything Amazon has done that I've already detailed in this article, Amazon has not earned my trust in the slightest. Also, I want to remind all of you that Amazon wants me to jump through these hoops, NOT to sell on the site or anything like that, but to simply get Amazon to mark the return as "complete" and stop trying to bill me for a returned item it already received! Yes, this is fucking ridiculous. Anyway, of course, since my heavily-redacted scan was of the front, not the back, it couldn't read the barcode and that was as far as I got with this experiment.

Amazon is seriously, and frankly, illegally, overstepping its boundaries by asking me to give it my government-issued ID for a matter in which Amazon is 100% at fault. Amazon has the item back, I have my money back, we're square. Apparently that's not good enough for Amazon, as it wants the item AND the money! That will not happen.

For the past two months, all Amazon customer service needed to do was mark the return as being "complete". For some reason, none of the low-level reps have the ability to do that simple task.  That is not something for which I need to submit identification in order for them to be able to do.  If any of the reps I communicated with over the past two months would have done this simple task, it would have prevented this matter from escalating into the problem I predicted it would become.

It seems that the only way Amazon will be satisfied is if I allow it to bill me for the returned item, and then contact Amazon support to get that money refunded back to me. I will not allow that improper behavior. Doing so will not change the way Amazon does business. However, a lawsuit against Amazon might.